tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post3738851402039494371..comments2023-11-02T01:20:32.436-07:00Comments on The Forbidden Gospels: Mellon Seminar Reflection 6: Does memory make history unrecoverable?April DeConickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06616757055618151612noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-43473679756013025732010-10-12T20:20:07.518-07:002010-10-12T20:20:07.518-07:00Just a thought on memory and memorization in certa...Just a thought on memory and memorization in certain cultures.<br /><br />Some cultures, particularly non literate cultures, assign certain people the task of memorizing the groups "history" word for word. This is particularly seen in geneological name lists in which perfect memorization was the requirement. There is evidence that such memorization is evident among South Pacific islanders and can be compared to similar lists memorized by Hawaiians. <br /><br />I recognize that memorization of events will certainly be tainted by social context if the memorization does not go back to original observers of events. Still there are situations in which social modification is avoided for long periods of time by memorization.<br /><br />Any comment on this?Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-88123857027496895842010-10-10T08:27:23.962-07:002010-10-10T08:27:23.962-07:00Does memory make history unrecoverable?"
Not...Does memory make history unrecoverable?"<br /><br />Not entirely...but social and political pressures do.R.Eaglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11433343215023187850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-50480928179433242392010-10-09T09:57:49.073-07:002010-10-09T09:57:49.073-07:00For those interested, April has an article in a re...For those interested, April has an article in a relatively recent book on social memory and the New Testament. The book is A. Kirk and T. Thatcher, Memory, Tradition, and Text: Uses of the Past in Early Christianity (Semeia 52; Atlanta, Ga.: Society of Biblical Literature, 2005). April's article is "Reading the Gospel of Thomas as a Repository of Early Christian Communal Memory" (207-20). I would also recommend, as a way to provide more footing for the notion of memory and its use in residual oral cultures (like that of the New Testament), Walter Ong, Orality and Literacy (New York: Routledge, 2002).maklelanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07789614421755640703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-84999170271122612152010-10-08T22:54:25.271-07:002010-10-08T22:54:25.271-07:00Answer to seminar question: no, human memory does...Answer to seminar question: no, human memory does not make history "unrecoverable" (an inapt term here); if memory does not help in writing history, then 'to do' history is folly. Are historians fools?PAULYRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13958421646805026598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-61873262274799048972010-10-08T16:05:47.555-07:002010-10-08T16:05:47.555-07:00One of the most interesting studies on memory has ...One of the most interesting studies on memory has been almost incidental in a study of the fans of the television series Doctor Who. As children, they had memories of the episodes, but no way of checking those memories. <br /><br />Long before the advent of DVD releases, a series of books novelising the stories were released, and it was apparent that in almost 100% of cases, the memories were reshaped by reading those books - however, the books in the process of turning the story from a TV show (with the limitations of 1960s and 1970s effects) into a book, would often make changes, sometimes slight, sometimes quite radical, but legitimately because they were written as stories not transcripts.<br /><br />When the original TV came out on TV, there was a considerable degree of frustration on fans between the disparity between what they remembered (and had also been shaped by the stories) and the reality. The phrase which most summed this up was by one of the producers of the show, who noted that "the memory cheats".<br /><br />Given its popularity in the UK, there was a considerable number of fans, but almost all without exception found their memories faulty - not on the broad plotlines, but on specific details, descriptions of people and places and also dialogue.TonyTheProfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10486414706261508994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-76366121580011881772010-10-08T10:29:47.928-07:002010-10-08T10:29:47.928-07:00April,
Once again I beg to take strong exception t...April,<br />Once again I beg to take strong exception to the premise, so widely embraced. that our primary problem with the historical Jesus is some limitation of memory.<br />On the authority of some of our top longest standing NT theologians. Given that the HJ cannot be reconstructed, the claim is made that we do have historical sources to apostolic witness to what Jesus said - if not verbatum - reliable witness to his intentionality - true Jesus kerygma.<br />Schbert Ogden: "The writings of the New Testament are not apostolic witness. With willi Marxsen he locates the NT Scriptural witness to be the earliest stratum of the synoptic tradition. Although Ogden does not name it, this leaves the Q sayings tadition found in the gospels of Matthew and Luke. <br />Hans Dieter Betz, the expert on the Sermon on the Mount, specifically names this to be our nearest apostolic witness, an alternative to the NT writings, " as known above all from the letters of Paul and the Gospels, as well as later writings of the New Testament. (thus to orthodox Christianity).<br />Betz writes: If the Jewish Christian Sermon on the Mount represents a response to the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth, critical of that of Gentile Christianity, then it serves unmistakably to underline the well-known fact of how little we know of Jesus and his teaching. The reasons for or lack of knowledge are of a hermeneutical sort and cannot be overcome by an excess of good will. The Gentile-Christian authors of the Gospels trnsmitted to us only that which they themselves understood, they handed on only that which they were able to translate into the thought categories (Pauline kerygma) of Gentile Christianity and which they thought worthy of transmission. By contrast, the Sermon on the Mount stands nearer to the Jewish thought of Jesus of Nazareth, and manifests its characteristic affinity and distance over against later Christianity".Ed Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06381736191202524168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-5494622999848720102010-10-08T10:12:30.891-07:002010-10-08T10:12:30.891-07:00I just met Anthony a couple weeks. Chris Keith, w...I just met Anthony a couple weeks. Chris Keith, who is at the same university, spoke on memory and the gospels.<br /><br />It sounds like they are both doing some interesting work.Jared Calawayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09380681998833566514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-21295148730488533522010-10-08T09:21:55.412-07:002010-10-08T09:21:55.412-07:00Good summary.
"My own work as a historian h...Good summary. <br /><br />"My own work as a historian has been deeply affected by social memory theory which I openly embrace."<br /><br />It's amazing once you encounter and embrace these theories how deeply they can affect the texts we read. I am merely a junior underling beginning scholar writing my MA thesis, however, I have found social memory theories to be quite intriguing when considering the employment of the Watchers myth in certain literature and counter-memories of the same myth.Scott Baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17407216819056323566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-90143284891417216472010-10-08T08:18:08.958-07:002010-10-08T08:18:08.958-07:00April,
Good summary of Social Memory Theory and ex...April,<br />Good summary of Social Memory Theory and excellent points in regard to our work as historians of Christians Origins. Now that my dissertation revisions are done and my book on narrative, memory, and identity in Acts will be coming out next year, I am thinking of turning my attention to the social memory of Paul in the deutero-Pauline epistles to see what those authors did with Paul in their own communities and how that may help us understand the development of Christianity in those places.Coleman A.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17259821728888130139noreply@blogger.com