tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post7167488603022181362..comments2023-11-02T01:20:32.436-07:00Comments on The Forbidden Gospels: Some Remarks about the Catholic revival of the Latin MassApril DeConickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06616757055618151612noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-25716339386927919102007-07-19T10:55:00.000-07:002007-07-19T10:55:00.000-07:00This came out just today. It might be of interest...<A HREF="http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=029c9e34-d44a-47a3-b931-dcbac1bdb8bf" REL="nofollow">This</A> came out just today. It might be of interest to those who have been following this thread.gdelassuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107851777800250317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-41232005082871500652007-07-13T20:01:00.000-07:002007-07-13T20:01:00.000-07:00Judy,There has been some improvement in Christian-...Judy,<BR/><BR/>There has been some improvement in Christian-Jewish relations. Bits and pieces, I would call it. But I don't think it is all that significant when you consider how much is still lacking and how many mistakes are still being made. Here is just a brief list:<BR/><BR/>1) Jewish leaders are still falsely blamed for Jesus' death and since they represent to some degree the Jewish religion of the time, Judaism is still maligned when it is claimed that there was something wrong with 1st century Judaism that it could do this to Jesus.<BR/><BR/>2) No one has ever given a rational argument that Jewish leaders were complicit in Jesus' death. By a rational argument, I mean one based on the evidence. The majority of evidence in the NT actually speaks against it, but there is a great silence about this in the scholarly world.<BR/><BR/>3) Unfortunately, many scholars convey the impression that a Jewish trial of Jesus is a stated fact in the Gospels. That is false. The so-called Jewish trial is an interpretation of the Gospels, not a given piece of data. The question can thus be asked whether it is a good interpretation. And that is a question which scholars have suppressed.<BR/><BR/>4) Many, perhaps most Christian scholars, still blame Jesus' death not only on Jewish leaders, but on the Jewish people, though they take care to be very subtle about this. That is, they make the chief cause of Jesus' death his offensiveness not only to Jewish leaders, but to the Jewish people. "Offensive" in fact is their favorite word to describe Jesus' relationship to his own people and his own culture. (You would be shocked at how often this word crops up in their work.)<BR/><BR/>5) Jesus' Jewishness is still underinvestigated. No one, not even Jewish scholars, have attempted to make a complete study of it. The fear of his full Jewishness is still a major factor in scholarly studies. And that fear betokens a very deep problem between Christian and Jew that no one wants to touch.<BR/><BR/>And Jews still suffer an inferiority complex because of all this. Or so I believe, but no one wants to talk about it. I hope this has not been overwhelming, but this is just a small part of what is still so very wrong and unjust in our study of history.<BR/><BR/>Leon ZitzerLeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309421171161805736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-20651512910317666602007-07-13T09:09:00.000-07:002007-07-13T09:09:00.000-07:00Can I point out that "Roman Catholic hierarchy" do...<I>Can I point out that "Roman Catholic hierarchy" does not equal "all Christian churches" nor even "all Catholics"?</I><BR/><BR/>You can, but lot of luck getting that rather basic and obvious point across. Even before I converted to Catholicism, it had long struck me that it was strange how the Pope is both received and reviled as if he were a stand-in for Christianity in general by so many non-Christians. This sort of phenomenon, for instance, was very much on display in the whole hoopla surrounding the <I>Da Vinci Code</I>, where Brown clearly had it in for Nicene Christianity in general but all the focus of both the book and the media spectacle which ensued therefrom were focussed toward the Vatican. Similarly, when the Pope made his now infamous Regensburg speech, Armenian, Anglican and Coptic churches were all assaulted in Cairo in response, as if somehow these folks had something to do with the Pope.<BR/><BR/>There is, of course, no <I>logical</I> reason why this sort of thing should be true, but then I suspect that this phenomenon was never really a function of <I>logic</I> in the first place. Just like Voltaire's famous "ecrassez l'infame," this is all more visceral than cerebral.gdelassuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11107851777800250317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-61080414728453649682007-07-12T15:43:00.000-07:002007-07-12T15:43:00.000-07:00I am sure that Leon's right to say that a signific...I am sure that Leon's right to say that a significant amount the improvement in Christian-Jewish relations was catalysed by the Holocaust. I think, though, that there are many Christians and Christian denominations who have come a very long way as a result and are not about to go backwards. For example, my own denomination has extensive resources in this area at <A HREF="http://www.wgcjr.unitingchurch.org.au/" REL="nofollow"><BR/>http://www.wgcjr.unitingchurch.org.au/</A><BR/>and is very careful to differentiate between the behaviour of (some of) the Jewish leaders of Jesus' time and Jews and Judaism in general. <BR/><BR/>Can I point out that "Roman Catholic hierarchy" does <B>not</B> equal "all Christian churches" nor even "all Catholics"? There are many issues on which the official position of the Roman Catholic church is not <B>the</B> Christian position, but merely one position held by some Christians. :-)Judy Redmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04350638846246966802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-28958891593308885982007-07-11T20:16:00.000-07:002007-07-11T20:16:00.000-07:00Sometimes I think that the only reason there has b...Sometimes I think that the only reason there has been any improvement in Christian-Jewish relations is because of the Holocaust. Before that, it was truly awful. Even with the Holocaust, progress has been slow and not very deep. The Catholic Church's 1965 Nostra Aetate is really a very weak document concerning Jews and it took 20 years after the end of the war to produce it. But the 1974 Guidelines is admittedly much better. <BR/><BR/>The biggest improvement has been in terms of respect for each other's current beliefs and practices. But the study of history has not improved. It is impossible to read any Christian scholar on the historical Jesus and walk away with the impression that 1st century Judaism was a good religion. I think one reason why Jews stay away from the subject is because they know they will not get any good feelings about their ancient history from Christian sources. For Jews, it is a very negative experience reading almost any historical Jesus scholar.<BR/><BR/>So my fear is that the further away we get from the Holocaust, the less likely there will be any further improvement in relations and when the pressure of the Holocaust has moved to the distant past (no more living witnesses, no more children of such wtinesses), then we may even go backwards. The current Pope may just be testing the waters as to whether we can start going backwards now. Perhaps he senses what Christianity can return to when the Holocaust is no longer a strong factor. That's my worst fear in all this.<BR/><BR/>Leon ZitzerLeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309421171161805736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6536854065433425156.post-37182780122417668422007-07-11T08:28:00.000-07:002007-07-11T08:28:00.000-07:00Christian denominations can feel just as offended ...Christian denominations can feel just as offended as Jewish.<BR/><BR/>“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,” the document [Catholic Declaration] said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles."<BR/><BR/>Isn't this sort of reasoning the very thing that has fueled the Shiite-Sunni split?Jim Deardorffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04517653430586348063noreply@blogger.com